Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 10
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Roller Derby
I'd like to propose a specific set of guidelines for roller derby league related articles.
Roller derby leagues are presumed notable if they:
- Have team members who are on the national team for the Roller Derby World Cup;
- Have competed in intercounty, interstate or international bouts; or
- Are nationally ranked.
Roller derby skaters are presumed notable if they:
- Have competed at the Roller Derby World Cup; or
- Founded a notable league and participated in intercounty, interstate or international bouts.
I'd be open to including something like spectator attendance, but if you have 4,000 people in attendance to home bouts, you should be able to qualify under WP:GNG as there should be some media coverage of the league. As for skaters, there aren't any articles yet, so it probably isn't a big deal but I'd like to have something stated because most sports have individual athlete guidelines. --LauraHale (talk) 00:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not totally clear on your proposed guidelines. It's certainly possible that a roller derby league does not meet any of those three points -- has a member on the national team, have competed in interstate bouts, or are nationally ranked -- yet the team meets the general notability guideline that you've linked to -- "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article... " So the team would still be notable, and therefore an appropriate subject for an article, even though they don't qualify under the three points -- right? — Mudwater (Talk) 00:21, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- If a team qualifies under WP:GNG, then it qualifies there. Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Association football allows for youth players to qualify under GNG, even if they don't qualify under the guidelines for the league. This is just a proposed guideline for leagues that are more borderline when it comes to easily finding verifiable independent sources for notability. --LauraHale (talk) 00:29, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I see. And presumably the same would apply to individual skaters. That makes sense. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:05, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- To what extent does roller derby belong here, as opposed to WP:ENTERTAINER where we place, for example, professional wrestling? --Tryptofish (talk) 17:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I see. And presumably the same would apply to individual skaters. That makes sense. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:05, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Like it says in the lead section of the roller derby article, "[after the 1940s] it predominantly became a form of sports entertainment where the theatrical elements overshadowed the athleticism. This gratuitous showmanship largely ended with the sport's contemporary grassroots revival in the first decade of the 21st century. Although some sports entertainment qualities such as player pseudonyms and colorful uniforms were retained, scripted bouts with predetermined winners were abandoned." So roller derby has now become a fully legitimate sport again. — Mudwater (Talk) 17:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Have we reliable sources saying so? Ravenswing 19:09, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- What Mudwater says. Outside the USA (and to a large extent inside it), roller derby is supported by the country's national roller sports federation. They have access to sport development dollars through that organisation and, in some cases, can directly access funding from national and state institute of sports. --LauraHale (talk) 19:20, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Like it says in the lead section of the roller derby article, "[after the 1940s] it predominantly became a form of sports entertainment where the theatrical elements overshadowed the athleticism. This gratuitous showmanship largely ended with the sport's contemporary grassroots revival in the first decade of the 21st century. Although some sports entertainment qualities such as player pseudonyms and colorful uniforms were retained, scripted bouts with predetermined winners were abandoned." So roller derby has now become a fully legitimate sport again. — Mudwater (Talk) 17:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
The more I look at the sources provided here, the less enthusiasm I have. I see the sourcing for the recent reorganization of roller derby (albeit only in Australia, per the sources listed), but nothing that really gets to the sport versus entertainment question. Several of the sources are not intellectually independent of the subject. At an absolute minimum, any guidelines to be added here would have to clearly differentiate between roller derbies that were entertainment, and those more recent ones that putatively are not. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- It goes beyond the putative, all the way to the factual. Roller derby has evolved a lot over the decades. A lot of people are familiar with the entertainment-heavy and partially scripted version, from the 1960s, 70s, or 80s. The big revival started less than ten years ago I think, and has really picked up steam recently. Now it's a legitimate sporting event, mostly played by amateur women's leagues, but with a style or culture that has some camp or punk elements. I do agree that there should be good sources for all this, and the roller derby article already has some. Here's one that I found with a quick google search: Chicago Roller Derby: The Quick & Dirty. "If you haven't seen roller derby before, you might have preconceived notions about the sport and how it is played. It's not like WWE Wrestling, or God forbid, their kitschy spinoff GLO aka the "Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling". No, roller derby is a real sport for sure. In 2011, you won't see scantily clad babes without helmets, checking other women into the side rails. And unlike the video clips from the '70s, there's no antics: no slapping, no head-butts, no headlocks, and no pigtailed women pulling each others' hair." And so on. — Mudwater (Talk) 19:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- To repeat: (1) That's a blog. I'd feel better with better sourcing. (2) How does the proposed guideline differentiate between the "new" and "old" versions? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're right, the Chicago Now article is a blog. I hadn't noticed that. Here's a good one though: <ref>Neale, Rick (June 24, 2008). "All-Female Roller Derby Elbows Its Way In as a Legitimate Sport", USA Today</ref>. — Mudwater (Talk) 23:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's recognised as a sport by the roller sports bodies in the US, Australia, UK, Canada and Sweden, for starters. Pre-2000 roller derby was, certainly from the 1940s on, sports entertainment. If that was to be considered under this proposal, there was no World Cup and no national ranking of leagues, so leagues and skaters of the time could only potentially meet the second points of the two lists of criteria. Warofdreams talk 14:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
This is a general remark, not specific for roller derby, but no teams (or "leagues" should be assumed to be notable when they "Are nationally ranked" if there is only one national competition, not a multi-tiered competition system. If you have a minor sport with only one league of ten teams and a few hundred spectators per game max, then these teams aren't notable for playing "at the highest national level". Specific sports guidelines are intended as explanations of in which cases it can be expected that they will meet the GNG, not as a series of rules where the GNG doesn't need to be met. Fram (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- The issue for roller derby is, generally speaking, no national organisation which creates a national league or national competition. What you have is a case of various tournaments that may be regional or national or even international. You also have the possibility of interstate and intrastate bouts that can be organised similar to what you'd call a test match or series on the international level. That's how it works in Australia in any case because there is no national competition. (Ditto in the United States and Canada.) Thus, you have an organisation that nationally ranks them. In other countries, where the level of play is less organised, there is no organisation that provides national rankings. The guidelines I proposed were built with WP:GNG in mind: If you're nationally ranked, you should have the media coverage. If you're competing in interstate and international bouts, you should have media coverage. (These tend to involve bigger venues seating a few thousand people for one, and the organisers work hard to get media attention because of the outlay of cash.) In Australia, the major teams that qualify under those guidelines would have a few thousand attendees. *babbles* Hopefully that clears things up. My goal is to make it easier to get rid of Antihero Derby Alliance and Hard Knox Roller Girls where there appears to be nothing notable about the league in the article. At the moment, when looking at most roller derby articles, the default assumption appears to be "If a league exists, it is notable." Hence, the desire for clarity. --LauraHale (talk) 20:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I appreciate the USA Today source that Mudwater provided. It does make the sport/entertainment distinction very clearly, and is the kind of source that I have been asking for. Reading the rest of that piece, I notice how much there can also still be entertainment-like events. I think it's very important that anything added here serve to, as LauraHale points out, get rid of stuff that isn't really substantive, and not lend itself to being gamed to accomplish the exact opposite. I looked at all those links from various countries, and my reaction is that they are not intellectually independent of their subject. In other words, they are just saying that we have determined that we are a real sport. Not as credible as a news source saying so. I wonder, then, whether the thing to do is to only list the points about the World Cup, and say that anything else is governed instead by WP:ENTERTAINER. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think you are misunderstanding the other links - they are not produced by roller derby organisations, but by skate sport organisations which have recognised roller derby as a sport. Warofdreams talk 22:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Going marginally off point: I could probably pull together a bunch of sources if I went looking. There are just issues with roller derby. From the perspective of some one who has given herself a crash course in the topic, we basically have two, possibly three sports with the same name. The first was the roller derby distance races that pre-date the 1940s, for which there are a number of sources. Trove has a number of sources supporting this. That sport morphed into the entertainment related roller derby that dominated the 1950s to 1990s and is mostly what is chronicled in the history of roller derby article. Starting around 1998, 1999, we see the existence of roller derby as a women's only sport that is played on the grass roots level and is non-entertainment. In the USA, the entertainment roller derby overlaps still with the women's only sport. Outside the USA, the sport is pretty much defined as women only. (There is a good article in the recent Time magazine that talks about roller derby in Colombia for example. Skate Australia doesn't recognise any men's leagues to my knowledge. There aren't any men's national teams, nor is there a men's roller derby world cup.) I'd argue there is a pretty good case that the roller derby article should be rewritten and treat the default as the women's only sport (as that is what I think most people come to it for: What the sport is now) with the entertainment and men's/mixed derby being disambiguated in order to clear up the confusion. Otherwise, we'll end up with more non-notable POV pushing issues like we have with this AfD and all over the talk page. Beyond that, with out spending much more time researching the topic, Skate Australia's thing is probably the best link I can find off hand. Roller sports (though not necessarily roller derby unless the international federation is supporting it, not just national members) is getting support from national federations, and these national federations are getting Olympic related funding. Badly, playing connect the dots which I know we shouldn't do, that to me says it is a sport and it is intellectually different than the entertainment sport of the 1950s to 1990s. --LauraHale (talk) 22:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I broadly agree with that, although some of the dates could do with shifting a little. The men's game exists in Canada and Europe, too, but everywhere it is much less prominent than the women's game. The difficulty in splitting the sport in three is that, while stylistically it is appealing, the move from the first incarnation to the second was gradual, and there were some elements of sports entertainment even before the origin of the Transcontinental Roller Derby in 1935. The modern revival initially didn't distance itself much from the traditional sport - that came about over the next few years, particularly through the role played by the WFTDA. Warofdreams talk 23:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I just saw the section get added. I didn't think that would fall under NSport but since it is here: Off the top of my head, I see no mention of a legendary league Roller Games that has been around for almost half a century and was on national TV. How many other leagues like this are not included by this guideline? This makes me question the proponent. Trackinfo (talk) 07:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- They are guidelines for the modern, women's sport of roller derby and how to address these leagues specifically, almost all of which are found in Category:Roller derby leagues. The televised, entertainment form of roller derby that predates the modern revival would probably fall under entertainment notability or general notabilty and would not be applicable here. --LauraHale (talk) 08:02, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I just saw the section get added. I didn't think that would fall under NSport but since it is here: Off the top of my head, I see no mention of a legendary league Roller Games that has been around for almost half a century and was on national TV. How many other leagues like this are not included by this guideline? This makes me question the proponent. Trackinfo (talk) 07:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I broadly agree with that, although some of the dates could do with shifting a little. The men's game exists in Canada and Europe, too, but everywhere it is much less prominent than the women's game. The difficulty in splitting the sport in three is that, while stylistically it is appealing, the move from the first incarnation to the second was gradual, and there were some elements of sports entertainment even before the origin of the Transcontinental Roller Derby in 1935. The modern revival initially didn't distance itself much from the traditional sport - that came about over the next few years, particularly through the role played by the WFTDA. Warofdreams talk 23:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I appreciate the USA Today source that Mudwater provided. It does make the sport/entertainment distinction very clearly, and is the kind of source that I have been asking for. Reading the rest of that piece, I notice how much there can also still be entertainment-like events. I think it's very important that anything added here serve to, as LauraHale points out, get rid of stuff that isn't really substantive, and not lend itself to being gamed to accomplish the exact opposite. I looked at all those links from various countries, and my reaction is that they are not intellectually independent of their subject. In other words, they are just saying that we have determined that we are a real sport. Not as credible as a news source saying so. I wonder, then, whether the thing to do is to only list the points about the World Cup, and say that anything else is governed instead by WP:ENTERTAINER. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
break (roller derby)
I'm really not satisfied that what has been put on the page has gotten consensus here. I'm concerned that the guidelines are too inclusive. I'm going to delete the parts that I think should be discussed some more, and we can put them back if there is really consensus to include them here. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've removed the section again, I also don't see the necessary consensus here for this. This is a relatively new, emerging sport, where it isn't yet clear what will be notable and what won't, and no indication of what "major" bouts and competitions are. NSPORTS is intended to put down some established, accepted standards where it can be presumed a priori that (nearly) everyone or everything covered by it meets the GNG. There is no evidence yet that the proposed inclusion rules for Roller Derby meet this standard (e.g., does having a player at the world cup make the team notable? We still have to see whether the player will receive sufficient significant coverage, never mind the WP:NOTINHERITED claim that the team would become notable for having a notable player. There are world cups for everything, from barbecuing[8] to homeless football[9], but that doesn't mean that everyone involved or everything related to someone involved becomes notable. The GNG has global consensus, and this or other SNGs shouldn't decide after a short discussion with limited participation (and enthusiasm) that it isn't valid for such and such. Note the very first line of NSPORTS: "This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) will meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia." Fram (talk) 09:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree; the general notability guideline should apply. There is absolutely no reason for the tendency towards deletionist exclusion shown here. Dualus (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Although I raised the concern about consensus, I'm still receptive to putting some of it back. I do think there could be some value in what some might consider "deletionist exclusion"! I just felt that things like inter-county sounded too vague to fit with GNG. What I'd like to see is a better point-by-point justification for anything to be included. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- What reasons at all remain for any sort of exclusionary deletionism now that the Foundation has functional off-site backups? The practical cost (including monetary cost, labor, and risk) of additional disk space storage for the projects has effectively decreased by two orders of magnitude because of this technical achievement, and I would love to see our notability criteria follow suit. Dualus (talk) 17:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we're still an encyclopedia, rather than an indiscriminate information dump site. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, and believe that inclusion is far more discriminating than exclusion. Dualus (talk) 20:26, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we're still an encyclopedia, rather than an indiscriminate information dump site. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- What reasons at all remain for any sort of exclusionary deletionism now that the Foundation has functional off-site backups? The practical cost (including monetary cost, labor, and risk) of additional disk space storage for the projects has effectively decreased by two orders of magnitude because of this technical achievement, and I would love to see our notability criteria follow suit. Dualus (talk) 17:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Although I raised the concern about consensus, I'm still receptive to putting some of it back. I do think there could be some value in what some might consider "deletionist exclusion"! I just felt that things like inter-county sounded too vague to fit with GNG. What I'd like to see is a better point-by-point justification for anything to be included. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree; the general notability guideline should apply. There is absolutely no reason for the tendency towards deletionist exclusion shown here. Dualus (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I am in agreement with the criteria as LauraHale presented it. While I also am aware of Tryptofish's concerns that the inclusion criteria is too broad, I also want to point out the fact that this is an underexposed sport, and as such, verifiability is more difficult to achieve. As many articles in this sport are currently being questioned for notability and AfD'ed, it would be a good idea to at least have some criteria to work with. Also... notability guidelines are not a suicide pact. Just because we throw out a rough criteria, doesn't mean we can't polish and tweak it as necessary. Trusilver 20:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would argue for modifying it like this: [10]. I believe it improves on the original draft because:
- It removes the ill-defined "nationally ranked".
- It removes intercounty bouts and tournaments, which seem to me to be rather unlikely to be notable.
- It clarifies the language in the note at the end, by using the standard "presumed" terminology.
- It adds explicit language about entertainment pertaining to older versions of the "sport".
- With those changes, I'm OK with including it. I note that the editor who deleted the whole thing did so based on the argument that it would be too inclusive, and the editor who agreed with deleting it argued instead that it wouldn't be inclusive enough. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think that's a fair compromise. I'm in support of the language. Trusilver 21:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I continue to oppose restoring this until someone explains how it would be more work if the inclusion criteria were general instead of roller derby-specific, which is WP:CREEPy. Dualus (talk) 00:27, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I get the distinction being made here between intercounty and interstate. I gather the implication is that intercounty puts them closer together, and makes the event less noteworthy due to convenience. Counties and states vary in size all over the place, so not sure how enforceable this may be. Not to mention that Canada uses provinces, other countries use different geographical designations. Otherwise, I'm happy to see the direction this is going in. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Excellent point. Why should the granularity or nomenclature of a country's political divisions influence the inclusion of sports teams on Wikipedia? Remove specific notability rules when they aren't being used to clarify the general criteria, per WP:CREEP. Dualus (talk) 21:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Echoedmyron, you are right about the fact that it shouldn't be US-centric. In the US, where I live, counties are pretty small, so it's less about closeness/convenience than about the fact that a competition between two county teams would be ridiculously trivial in comparison to what we say about any other sport. No way would professional football (US), baseball, or basketball have intercounty competitions at the fully professional level. Based on what you pointed out, I would leave out any mention of either intercounty or interstate. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- I also agree. My personal believe would be the minimum level of notability for ANY sports team or figure would be competition at a national level. The problem I'm finding with roller derby is that the level of competition isn't as clear as it is in other sports. Thus making it difficult to determine if any given group or individual is notable. Trusilver 07:08, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Basically, I oppose any inclusion for roler derby at the moment. The sport is not settled enough, making it impossible now to decide a priori what events and circumstances make a team or player notable. NSPORTS is intended to be an easy reference to check whether it is likely that a player or team will meet the GNG, as indicated in the intro: "If the article does meet the criteria set forth below, then it is likely that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Many people here seem only to read the second line of the intro, and to forget the first and third one. Is there evidence that e.g. a player in the world cup would make the team notable? No, that's a pure guess. Feral Fairy is supposed to play on the world cup, and is a member of the Rainy City Roller Girls. The combination "Feral Fairy" "Rainy City" yields very few results and no reliable independent sources though, so it seems as if so far, a player at the world cup doesn't mean anything for the notability of the team (the may be notable anyway, but not because they have a player at the world cup). Which other tournaments and bouts are "major"? No idea. Not a good basis for a SNG either. Things may well get clearer in the next few years, but for now, there are no good rules-of-thumb to create a realistic guideline for it. That's not being deletionist or inclusionist, not having a SNG doesn't mean that roller derby can't have articles. There are no SNGs for much older (and Olympic) sports like speed skating / shorttrack, table tennis, martial arts like judo or karate, field hockey, and so on. Finally, if the section gets reincluded, please don't put in the "Professional sports persons" section, since there really aren't many (if any) professional roller derbyists: and please don't make roller derby the only one that is (mainly) about teams/leagues, in a section that is otherwise purely devoted to individuals (players, coaches, managers and referees). Fram (talk) 07:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Are you seriously proposing to delete all roller derby articles? How is that not WP:POINTy? I remain strongly opposed to specific criteria unless they serve to clarify the general inclusion criteria per WP:CREEP. Dualus (talk) 19:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Um, I'm pretty sure that Fram meant there should not be a set criteria for such articles at this time. I see nothing that proposes deleting articles. If you look closely, Fram even says, "not having a SNG doesn't mean that roller derby can't have articles". Echoedmyron (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, it does help to read what I write, as I did not and do not propose to delete all or even most roller derby articles. On further investigation (i.e. rereading the first sections of NSPORTS), it became clear that the suggested section not only doesn't belong in the sports-specific section, but also not in this guideline at all. "It is not intended that this guideline should apply to sports clubs and teams; for these the specific notability guideline is WP:ORG.". (bolding mine) Fram (talk) 09:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- That rather contradicts the first sentence: "This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) will meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia". Perhaps a new section is needed to resolve this? Warofdreams talk 16:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, the first sentence makes it clear that this guidelines adresses persons, and leagues/organizations (in the traditional sense of the word), so the Premier League or the NBA are covered by the guideline, but individual teams are not. That roler derby teams for some reason desrcibe themselves as "leagues" is confusing, but the links in the first sentence of the guideline make it clear that the guideline si about the traditional "leagues", and not about the creative naming of teams. Fram (talk) 12:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- My guess is actually that when it was decided recently to make it clear that teams don't fall under this guideline that no one thought to change the first sentence. I would argue that even leagues should fall under wp:org. But that is a different discussion. -DJSasso (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- No objection to that, but indeed this should be mentioned outside the roller derby discussion before it gets removed. As long as it is clear that as the guideline now stands, the disputed roller derby section has no chance of being included here, no matter how inclusive or exclusive it is, since it falls outside the scope of this page. Fram (talk) 12:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: leagues don't actually describe themselves as teams. The leagues, for the most part, have teams within in them. Most have "house" teams that play each other at home, and one or more travel teams, generally all-star type teams, that play travel teams from other cities. (For example - the teams that play for rankings within the WFTDA are travel teams that represent leagues. To make a very broad comparison, take the NHL - it would be like the NHL being the league, the various teams within being the teams, and say an all-star team playing a team made up of star from say the Swedish Elite league would be the travel team. It's a rather unique way of doing things to be sure. For derby, the leagues are notable - under a to be determined criteria - yet typically the league gets used as short form for their travel teams when discussing bouts against other teams' travel teams. My impression is that news media articles tend to focus this way. The house teams would not be as notable, and tend not to get written up in the press to the same extent. A league article in my view ought to mention the house teams, with emphasis on their travel teams, and if the league is a member of an organization such as the WFTDA, their rank within should be covered, along with a history of bouting against other leagues' travel teams. The long and short of it, as others have said, is that this is a still evolving sport with a unique set of circumstances. It may simply be too soon to consider developing and enforcing a strict set of criteria for establishing notability. Certainly not every league will have members playing on national squads, and the degree to which a travel event is or isn't notable is really fuzzy. We've also seen on the main roller derby article debates about whether or not the WFTDA should be considered the defining organization or not, so I don't think we can simply say that being a member of the WFTDA establishes notability when other organizations may also have worth. I think a better place to start might be for sorting out the sourcing requirements for roller derby articles - I think we can all agree that the New York Times and ESPN are reliable sources, but what of the Derby News Network, which clearly will have more of a basis for the accuracy of its reportage through familiarity of the teams and the sport, and certain bloggers who again will know what they're talking about more than a sports reporter who feels the need to make dated references to old incarnations of the sport. This is likely not the place for that discussion - I had floated the idea to a handful of editors of a WikiProject a while back with the aim of improving roller derby articles in general, but nothing came of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Echoedmyron (talk • contribs)
- No objection to that, but indeed this should be mentioned outside the roller derby discussion before it gets removed. As long as it is clear that as the guideline now stands, the disputed roller derby section has no chance of being included here, no matter how inclusive or exclusive it is, since it falls outside the scope of this page. Fram (talk) 12:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- My guess is actually that when it was decided recently to make it clear that teams don't fall under this guideline that no one thought to change the first sentence. I would argue that even leagues should fall under wp:org. But that is a different discussion. -DJSasso (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, the first sentence makes it clear that this guidelines adresses persons, and leagues/organizations (in the traditional sense of the word), so the Premier League or the NBA are covered by the guideline, but individual teams are not. That roler derby teams for some reason desrcibe themselves as "leagues" is confusing, but the links in the first sentence of the guideline make it clear that the guideline si about the traditional "leagues", and not about the creative naming of teams. Fram (talk) 12:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- That rather contradicts the first sentence: "This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) will meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia". Perhaps a new section is needed to resolve this? Warofdreams talk 16:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, it does help to read what I write, as I did not and do not propose to delete all or even most roller derby articles. On further investigation (i.e. rereading the first sections of NSPORTS), it became clear that the suggested section not only doesn't belong in the sports-specific section, but also not in this guideline at all. "It is not intended that this guideline should apply to sports clubs and teams; for these the specific notability guideline is WP:ORG.". (bolding mine) Fram (talk) 09:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Um, I'm pretty sure that Fram meant there should not be a set criteria for such articles at this time. I see nothing that proposes deleting articles. If you look closely, Fram even says, "not having a SNG doesn't mean that roller derby can't have articles". Echoedmyron (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Professional eSports
Is there a criteria for professional esports players? Redefining history (talk) 15:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- No more than for any other video game player, I expect, save for the GNG. Ravenswing 16:33, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- There is none defined with in this project. That would fall under the scope of the video project, IMNSHO. Professional video gaming is not a sport in the sense that this project covers. The simplest option is to rely on WP:GNG, though I am not sure how many of these video game players actually get wide coverage. Resolute 16:36, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Where is the video gaming WP:BIO page? Redefining history (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- There isn't one, as such. The closest thing to a notability guideline is WP:WEB, so it's really WP:GNG that applies. The project mentioned above would be Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
I think esports is a sport. Redefining history (talk) 01:49, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- For those of us unfamiliar with the term, can you clarify what it is and why you think it fits under this guideline? Does it consist of more than playing video games? Cbl62 (talk) 01:55, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Electronic sports Redefining history (talk) 02:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- And in addition, i think every game which is played professionally should be considered as a different sport, such as Starcraft 2 and Dota 2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redefining history (talk • contribs) 02:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think there are some arguments to be made that professional gaming is moving into sports territory. It has many sporting elements such as tourneys, coaches, training facilities, amateur and professional tiers, etc. In South Korea, there is no question that it has sport-like legitimacy. It's on the rise in North America and Europe, partly due to groups like Major League Gaming. (Look at that sporty logo!) One could argue that if motorsports can be included, this could too. (People + machines + competition = sport?) On another note, what do we do with professional poker players? GNG? The Interior (Talk) 02:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, in China, their ministry of sports listed e-sports as the 99th sport. Outline of sports#Electronic_sports describes this. Poker could be classified as a mind sport (i am not knowledgeable in poker, maybe someone else will argue for it) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redefining history (talk • contribs) 03:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- 99th? That doesn't really help our argument. The Interior (Talk) 03:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Why not? this shows that e-sports are classified as sports in several countries and china is an example. Redefining history (talk) 03:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- 99th? That doesn't really help our argument. The Interior (Talk) 03:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, in China, their ministry of sports listed e-sports as the 99th sport. Outline of sports#Electronic_sports describes this. Poker could be classified as a mind sport (i am not knowledgeable in poker, maybe someone else will argue for it) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redefining history (talk • contribs) 03:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think there are some arguments to be made that professional gaming is moving into sports territory. It has many sporting elements such as tourneys, coaches, training facilities, amateur and professional tiers, etc. In South Korea, there is no question that it has sport-like legitimacy. It's on the rise in North America and Europe, partly due to groups like Major League Gaming. (Look at that sporty logo!) One could argue that if motorsports can be included, this could too. (People + machines + competition = sport?) On another note, what do we do with professional poker players? GNG? The Interior (Talk) 02:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
There actually was a note in the guideline that reflected that e-sports did not qualify under this guideline...it appears it got misplaced so its been readded. -DJSasso (talk) 18:34, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I really take issue with including e-sports in this guideline at all. They are competitions, sure, but so are spelling bees. Are we going to treat spelling bee contestants, as well as science prize competitors, here? Of course not. I'm not wild about that paragraph that was added, and, if anything, would rather that it say that those kinds of things are not covered by this guideline, without purporting to differentiate between notable and non-notable. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- With WP:CIRCULAR as an admitted caveat, I find it useful to look at how the lead paragraph at Sport is written:
- "Sport is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants. Sport may be competitive, where a winner or winners can be identified by objective means, and may require a degree of skill, especially at higher levels. Hundreds of sports exist, including those for a single participant, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals. Some non-physical activities, such as board games and card games are sometimes referred to as sports, but a sport is generally recognised as being based in physical athleticism."
- I think that last sentence is very relevant here. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- There is a strong element of physicality in gaming that isn't present in chess, cards, or spelling bees. Gamers talk about "actions per minute", a metric that measures how many moves they can process, and input properly through the interface. It is a physical hand-eye coordination that makes people successful in these activities. There are similarities to motorsports - reaction time, operating a machine at a skilled level. I don't think e-sports can be written off as non-physical. Just some thoughts. The Interior (Talk) 19:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm, you do make a good point with respect to motorsports (and I suppose golf), but I think there is a distinction between athleticism in the sense of physical activity, and "actions per minute" in the sense of manual dexterity. (Pickpockets are not athletes.) Please correct me if I'm wrong, but most video games do not simply score victory based on actions per minute, but rather on the outcomes of those actions. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Football requires lots of strategy as well. As do many other sports require a balance between physical and mental abilities. --Odie5533 (talk) 19:52, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm, you do make a good point with respect to motorsports (and I suppose golf), but I think there is a distinction between athleticism in the sense of physical activity, and "actions per minute" in the sense of manual dexterity. (Pickpockets are not athletes.) Please correct me if I'm wrong, but most video games do not simply score victory based on actions per minute, but rather on the outcomes of those actions. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- There is a strong element of physicality in gaming that isn't present in chess, cards, or spelling bees. Gamers talk about "actions per minute", a metric that measures how many moves they can process, and input properly through the interface. It is a physical hand-eye coordination that makes people successful in these activities. There are similarities to motorsports - reaction time, operating a machine at a skilled level. I don't think e-sports can be written off as non-physical. Just some thoughts. The Interior (Talk) 19:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- With WP:CIRCULAR as an admitted caveat, I find it useful to look at how the lead paragraph at Sport is written:
- I have no problem changing the wording. I was just replacing the original wording that was as I mentioned removed or dropped by mistake in the split. Consensus definitely appears to not supporting egames being here and we can certainly change to that, but at the moment this is better than nothing. (I would note my re-adding it was a BRD technically...so you BRD'd a BRD.) -DJSasso (talk) 19:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's hard to keep track. Anyway, it's good that we are discussing it. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- The point that we allow the guidelines as we do with physical professional sports is that they are broadly covered internationally in many forms of media - print, television, radio, etc. The amount of attention they get thus allows for the reasonable assertion that playing in major international competitions will be an indication that sources exist for that person either directly as a result of playing in that competition or from their history of why they got into that competition, or both.
- For other "sports" like chess, poker, eSports, etc., this broad coverage just does not exist to the same degree. There are limited reliable sources that cover these, making the competition itself notable, but the players do not have the same likelihood of having existing sources or sources after the fact. Some may become notable regardless if that is caught by mainstream press, but not an assured occurence. Hence why the non-physical sports do not have the same allownaces as the physical ones. There also tends to be the fact that participation in these types of esports is self-directed (eg anyone can be a good poker player) compared to more physical sports where the top pro and ametuer players are weeded out through team selection and performance. --MASEM (t) 19:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, about your argument on "(eg anyone can be a good poker player)", this is different for esports. not every single person have the reaction/hand-eye coordination to compete in the highest level. and not every single game can be deemed competitive, especially MMORPGS. IMHO, the games that could be covered in esports are only Counter Strike, Starcraft, Warcraft and Defense of the Ancients, and despite the pubic population playing these games, they only play in specific rooms where we could call "publics". only a small group of them are actually fully paid to "entertain the audience", which is also another element of sports, as thus we call them professional esports players. For your point on notability, prominent gaming sites such as GosuGamers, MyMYM and sGamer are supposedly deemed biased and thus not a notable source by wikipedia. However, this argument is based on the opinion that the sites are acting in the interest of the games/players. I would like to point out that these sites actually works the same as sites such as goal.com and other sports sites, could they possibly be acting in the interest of FC Barcelona and Arsenal at the same time when publishing the transfer of cesc fabregas? Or when they feature a player due to his/her performances will it be accused of acting in the interest of the player? i would like to rule out this possibility. These gaming sites reports facts about the happenings in the gaming scene and thus should be deemed as the notable source for esports players. Other responds to arguments : "most video games do not simply score victory based on actions per minute, but rather on the outcomes of those actions." : this applies to most sports too, if you run the most in a football field does it guarantee that you will win?
On another note, i think there is a general misconception. eSports players do have teams. In DotA, where 5 man is needed on a team, teams like MeetYourMakers, Natus Vincere, Invictus Gaming, Moscow Five exists. And every team signs players (transfers exists too, just like football), and in my opinion this is very sport-like. Other games such as Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 are based on 1v1 matches, and this could be comparable to Tennis singles, badminton singles and table-tennis singles. Redefining history (talk) 08:40, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
In addition, these teams are generally backed by strong sponsors, especially Invictus Gaming, which is owned by currently wealthiest man in China, Wang Jianlin. Redefining history (talk) 01:23, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I have been told numerous times that this should be under WikiProject: Video Games, however I would like to point out that the video games project seems to be focused on the video games itself, while the competitive playing of certain video games, a.k.a. e-sports, should fit in "sports" instead. Redefining history (talk) 04:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Is there a problem with using WP:GNG in the absense of establishing an outline specific to the sport? At some point all sports athletes have guidelines under GNG and Athlete and if e-Sports competitors do not meet those criteria then perhaps e-Sports still has some way to go. Every sport that is professional now went through a period when they were not. Growing pains are exactly that. --Falcadore (talk) 06:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Which is precisely why i brought up a discussion here. Alot of sports athletes, who has appeared, for example, one game in some "top" football competition in the 19th century gets a wikipedia article not due to the GNG but due to the SNG. video games guidelines does not fit into esports. And the sources we have for esports does not satisfy the sources required for GNG which i perceive is due to some misunderstanding of such sources. I don't understand, when you type the player's name in google, you get tons of articles about them. Yet one by one the articles are argued as unreliable and you have to dig to find reliable sources. And when i find them, all they say is "it shouldn't be too hard to find reliable sources, so these players are non-notable". ... Redefining history (talk) 10:22, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- he has trouble understanding the concept that the GNG requires "SUBSTANTIAL coverage in reliable sources that are INDEPENDENT of the subject." He has started this argument in about 12 different places. Since he can not find sources to satisfy the GNG he hopes to make an end run around it here. The first reply to him here [11] sums up the situation nicely. Basically this has all been explained to him countless times now. Personally I feel that since the overwhelming consensus at the videogame project is that these articles do not belong here and should not have special consideration I don't think the conversation should continue here. However he will just continue here until he feels he is not winning his argument and just move on somewhere else. Ridernyc (talk) 18:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Look at this Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Links. Half of these links doesnt even satisfty as independent sources. I would like to contest on what is an independent source here. Does a site that only covers football be counted as independent sources when it comes to football players? Does a site that only covers basketball be counted as independent sources when it comes to basketball players? Redefining history (talk) 04:20, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Why would a site fail as a source solely because they cover basketball (or any other sport)? Would you even try to argue that Golf magazine wouldn't be a reliable source or that a feature article in said magazine wouldn't be significant coverage? Independent has nothing to do with their subject matter. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I believe that is exactly his point. If you follow the discussions to which Ridernyc refers, this is the argument that has been used against the independence of the sources used for notability in many articles on professional gamers, and he is trying to show by analogy that these criteria are misguided. You seem to agree. Inkwiry (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- No, we don't agree. Ridernyc seems to have a firm grasp on WP:RS, Redefining History (and apparently you) don't seem to understand it that well. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you feel that way, but I would rather you respond to my comment, instead of attacking me. All I am saying here is that the way I understand Redefining history, he is trying to compare the standards used for sources in football, etc. to the standards some people have asked him to use for sources in esports. I think he would agree fully with your statement above, and he is further claiming that you should also apply those standards to esports. You may argue that doing this is silly until we establish whether or not esports are sports, as we are trying to below, and I would fully agree. So we should probably go ahead and move down there now. Inkwiry (talk) 17:25, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- No, we don't agree. Ridernyc seems to have a firm grasp on WP:RS, Redefining History (and apparently you) don't seem to understand it that well. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I believe that is exactly his point. If you follow the discussions to which Ridernyc refers, this is the argument that has been used against the independence of the sources used for notability in many articles on professional gamers, and he is trying to show by analogy that these criteria are misguided. You seem to agree. Inkwiry (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Look at this Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Links. Half of these links doesnt even satisfty as independent sources. I would like to contest on what is an independent source here. Does a site that only covers football be counted as independent sources when it comes to football players? Does a site that only covers basketball be counted as independent sources when it comes to basketball players? Redefining history (talk) 04:20, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think i've gotten an answer at the wikipedia IRC help..
- Chatlog as following:
- [12:25] <redefinehistory> Does a site that only covers football be counted as independent sources when it comes to football players? Does a site that only covers basketball be counted as independent sources when it comes to basketball players?
- [12:25] <+Alpha_Quadrant> It depends on the website
- [12:25] <redefinehistory> goal.com
- [12:26] <redefinehistory> please tell me why and why not
- [12:26] <+Alpha_Quadrant> Generally, if they have a reputation for being reliable amongst the common public, then yes
- [12:26] <+Alpha_Quadrant> it they have a bad reputation, or if they are relatively unknown, then no
- [12:26] <redefinehistory> could you help define "have a reputation for being reliable amongst the common public"
- [12:26] <redefinehistory> ?
- [12:27] <redefinehistory> please?
- [12:27] <+Alpha_Quadrant> how many people use it as a trusted source?
- [12:27] <redefinehistory> how i do know that .. lol
- [12:27] <+Alpha_Quadrant> usually the alexia rating
- [12:27] <redefinehistory> ok wiat
- [12:27] <+Alpha_Quadrant> I'll check
- [12:28] <+Alpha_Quadrant> *Alexa
- [12:28] <redefinehistory> what satisfies the criteria?
- [12:29] <+Alpha_Quadrant> it looks like it it fairly well known.
- My argument is, since football sites covering about football teams/players and basketball sites covering about basketball teams/players is considered independent, so why not dota sites covering about dota teams/players and starcraft sites covering about starcraft teams/players? (Note : for those with an argument "the players post the news iteself", the esports community is not so small. They have journalists and all and the players/managers never post news itself on these sites. There are also websites of these players/teams itself in which they are the primary sources and should not be considered independent/disinterested) These sites are different from the "fanpages" listed out in the video gaming sources as it isn't something like a fan-based community posting about rumours on the game itself and should be compared to those sites of basketball/football/other sports.
- Another Chatlog:
- [12:29] <redefinehistory> could you help me check this site? http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gosugamers.net
- [12:29] <redefinehistory> does it count as well known or something?
- [12:30] <redefinehistory> compared to this http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/sgamer.com
- [12:30] <+Alpha_Quadrant> redefinehistory: hmm, the first one appears to be used by other reliable sources
- [12:31] <+Alpha_Quadrant> suggesting that it may be reliable
- So check these sites out, it should be considered reliable
- http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/prodota.ru
- http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/pchome.net
- http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/mymym.com
- http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/178.com
- http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gosugamers.net
- http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/sgamer.com
- http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/replays.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redefining history (talk • contribs) 07:07, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Redefining history (talk) 04:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I would like to ask for permission for someone (if no one, i can do it too) to draft a proposal for e-sport. Redefining history (talk) 10:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
This is my draft of the proposal, others might want to add into it:
- E-sports (Note:These competitions are all offline)
- Has achieved the following placings in the following major international competitions :
- GOMTV Global Starcraft II League - Top 8 in S-Code
- DreamHack - Top 8
- Intel Extreme Masters - Top 8
- Major League Gaming - Top 8
- BlizzCon - Top 8
- Electronic Sports World Cup - Top 8
- World Cyber Games - Top 8
- North American Star League - Top 4
- IGN Pro League - Top 4
- Has achieved the following placings in the following major international competitions :
- Electronic Sports World Cup - Top 4
- World DotA Championship - Top 4
- The International - Top 4
- Has won the following major domestic/reigonal competitions :
- SMM Grand National DotA Tournament
- ASUS Open
- Electronic Sports Thailand Championship
- Dreamhack
- World Cyber Games Asia
- G-League
- Could someone help out with this?
- This too
Redefining history (talk) 13:15, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I support the "won the following" listing, but I am not sure participating in the other ones is quite enough. Do all of them have preliminary qualifiers before the main tournament? --Odie5533 15:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I object to participation at major tournaments. It isn't consistent with many of the smaller sports here. The Paralympic Games will be the second largest multi-sport event in 2012. Athletes competing in it do not get articles: They need to medal to assume that they should meet WP:GNG. If participation is important here, I'd need to see several examples of low ranked players who would qualify for WP:GNG based on their participation in one of those tournaments. --LauraHale (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Along the same lines as what I've said in other discussion threads, you need to show that (nearly) everyone who meets the proposed criteria has received independent, notable coverage, before the criteria can be used to establish the presumption of notability. isaacl (talk) 20:49, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I went looking for the "World DotA Championship" and a list of team members for the Australian MCiTY team that competed in this tournament. The team name MCiTY is what appears on an official announcement of teams competing in the tournament. I can't even find a list of players that compete on that team. If I can't find a team roster that contains a list of competitor names, I'm not sure how these players could even begin to qualify under WP:GNG. I'm not opposed to it, but the criteria really need to be refined to what is likely to be notable or even assumed should be notable. --LauraHale (talk) 21:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- It has been established in numerous places --see my comments above-- That none of these players pass the GNG. In fact if you look at The International (Dota 2 Competition) which is an article this editor created last night, I'm not even sure the tournaments themselves pass GNG. Only a few brief mentions in reliable sources and the sources seem padded with tons of primary sources. This is an attempt to in fact create an exception to the GNG or to try to convince people that primary sources and fan sites can be used to establish notability. Ridernyc (talk) 22:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- MCiTY didn't participate in the WDC, the only competition MCity participated on the list is the SGNDT, which they achieved an awful placing. Yes, the ESWC and WDC all have qualifiers, and The International consisted of teams handpicked by "icefrog", the creator of dota/dota2. My article on The International was created through the AFC process and reviewed as passing the GNG.... what's wrong with it. Changed "participated" to top 4. Redefining history (talk) 03:13, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Just because it came out of AFC is no indication it will survive AFD. You keep trying to do that, trying to attach meaning to different polices and processes. You are also once again side tracking the issue the PLAYERS need to pass the GNG. Even if these tournaments are notable it has nothing to do with the people who play in them passing the GNG. You have been trying for going on a week now and have still yet to show how a single player will ever have a hope of passing the GNG. Ridernyc (talk) 03:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- MCiTY didn't participate in the WDC, the only competition MCity participated on the list is the SGNDT, which they achieved an awful placing. Yes, the ESWC and WDC all have qualifiers, and The International consisted of teams handpicked by "icefrog", the creator of dota/dota2. My article on The International was created through the AFC process and reviewed as passing the GNG.... what's wrong with it. Changed "participated" to top 4. Redefining history (talk) 03:13, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- It has been established in numerous places --see my comments above-- That none of these players pass the GNG. In fact if you look at The International (Dota 2 Competition) which is an article this editor created last night, I'm not even sure the tournaments themselves pass GNG. Only a few brief mentions in reliable sources and the sources seem padded with tons of primary sources. This is an attempt to in fact create an exception to the GNG or to try to convince people that primary sources and fan sites can be used to establish notability. Ridernyc (talk) 22:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I went looking for the "World DotA Championship" and a list of team members for the Australian MCiTY team that competed in this tournament. The team name MCiTY is what appears on an official announcement of teams competing in the tournament. I can't even find a list of players that compete on that team. If I can't find a team roster that contains a list of competitor names, I'm not sure how these players could even begin to qualify under WP:GNG. I'm not opposed to it, but the criteria really need to be refined to what is likely to be notable or even assumed should be notable. --LauraHale (talk) 21:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I got confused part of the way through this.....are we actually entertaining the notion that playing video games is a sport and should be included under this guideline? Niteshift36 (talk) 04:00, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- The more appropriate place to do this would have been at the video game project. However when he went there he hit a brick wall and was told that they needed to pass the GNG and that they don't pass the GNG. So we are now back here where people are at least talking to him. Also I would like to add this needs to be cleared up because multiple people have tried using this guideline at the AFD's for these players [12]. Ridernyc (talk) 04:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm having a hard time accepting it as a sport, just as I would have a hard time calling poker a sport. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- There is an argument above about this. Where e-sports have physical components while poker doesnt. Redefining history (talk) 06:33, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- And it looks far from settled. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- The more appropriate place to do this would have been at the video game project. However when he went there he hit a brick wall and was told that they needed to pass the GNG and that they don't pass the GNG. So we are now back here where people are at least talking to him. Also I would like to add this needs to be cleared up because multiple people have tried using this guideline at the AFD's for these players [12]. Ridernyc (talk) 04:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
As the list for events has been refactored, adding more events to the list and saying they won is not going to help with the argument regarding notability. If Redefining history is genuinely interested in earning consensus for a policy related to the notability standards s/he has proposed, Redefining history needs to, on this page, provide an example list of these athletes/competitors who meet those standards and provide sources to demonstrate notability under WP:GNG that would entitle them to have articles created about them, regardless of the proposed policy. The point of notability policy on this page is not to maximise the number of articles allowed under policy but to make it more clear for articles that are marginal. Example: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Romsey Town Rollerbillies (and to a lesser degree Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Modern Athletic Derby Endeavor ) is an AfD related to a roller derby league. Before this, there was no clear policy what roller derby leagues were notable. The guidelines clarify it and make it clear who is and is not notable from that perspective and what sources should be there. So [User:Redefining history|Redefining history]] , please provide example competitors from your model and show us how they meet WP:GNG on a wide scale.--LauraHale (talk) 04:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please read my chatlog on the wikipedia IRC above. If those sources are considered reliable, i would have a lot of examples to show you. Redefining history (talk) 06:03, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I help out on IRC too. And my read is that each source will need to be independently verified. I looked at one cited in the article linked to. It appeared to be okay. But other pages on the site did not appear to be written by journalists. In any case, please provide multiple sources demonstrating WP:GNG for people meeting the criteria listed. Otherwise, complete impasse and you're really never going to get consensus. --LauraHale (talk) 06:18, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Which articles and sources you are referring to? Tell me which article and i can list down the sources+author+date right here. Redefining history (talk) 06:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- My bad. I'll provide consensus support for your proposal if you can find sources that meet WP:GNG for the following people, that by your own definitions, would be notable under your proposal:
- Which articles and sources you are referring to? Tell me which article and i can list down the sources+author+date right here. Redefining history (talk) 06:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I help out on IRC too. And my read is that each source will need to be independently verified. I looked at one cited in the article linked to. It appeared to be okay. But other pages on the site did not appear to be written by journalists. In any case, please provide multiple sources demonstrating WP:GNG for people meeting the criteria listed. Otherwise, complete impasse and you're really never going to get consensus. --LauraHale (talk) 06:18, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Danylo “Dendi” Ishutin, The International (Dota 2 Competition)
- Clement “Puppey” Ivanov, The International (Dota 2 Competition)
- Dmitriy “LighTofHeaveN” Kupriyanov, The International (Dota 2 Competition)
- Two members of the 2005 team for Str8 Rippin, Major League Gaming
- Note: These guys are from the halo section, as i mentioned above, only starcraft for MLG. Redefining history (talk) 08:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Femina Bellica, Electronic Sports World Cup
- Note: These girls are from the Counter Strike Female section, as i mentioned above, only starcraft and dota for ESWC. Redefining history (talk) 08:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Jean-Philippe "Phenicks" Lacombe, Electronic Sports World Cup
- Note: These guys are from the Gran Turismo 4 section, as i mentioned above, only starcraft and dota for ESWC. Redefining history (talk) 08:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Jason "socrates" Sylka, Electronic Sports World Cup
- Note: These guys are from the Quake 3 section, as i mentioned above, only starcraft and dota for ESWC. Redefining history (talk) 08:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Note: where did you get these 3 names? For this, sorry i am not knowledgeable enough in starcraft/warcraft.. maybe someone could help out instead. Redefining history (talk) 08:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kim "Rainbow" Sung Je, GOMTV Global Starcraft II League
- I apologise for the length of the list. If these guidelines are to be created, the vast majority should easily meet WP:GNG and until we have several examples of that which can be tested, then the guidelines don't work. In using WP:GNG, please make sure that there is at least one source that does not mention the event next to their name and at least one source that says mentions the event and where they placed. --LauraHale (talk) 07:13, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, i apologize that i am not knowledgeable enough on starcraft and that is just a rough list. However, i am knowledgeable enough in DotA. Some of the people you listed there aren't from the starcraft/dota section. please note on the games i have listed on my proposal. These are the 3 dota players you listed out.
- Danylo “Dendi” Ishutin, The International (Dota 2 Competition)
- Dendi speaks out 2011-01-22 Ulrich Hanten
- Ks.Int adds Dendi 2009-03-18 Chris H.
- ASUS Spring special featuring Dendi 2011-05-30 Ulrich Hanten
- SGamer interviews Dendi 2011-09-17 Dexter F
- [13]
- Dendi答网友问:数字ID有含义 没领过薪水 2011-2-18 雨夜未央
- Na'Vi.Dendi:WDC最难忘 Na'Vi潜力巨大 2011-1-23 princelin9
- [战队 Dendi回归Ks.int 我是Levent的纷丝] 2009-3-18 Improbity
- DTS人员危机:Dendi携Artstyle加入Na'Vi 2010-12-26 princelin9
- Na'Vi take home $1,000,000 2011-08-21 Ulrich Hanten
- Well, i apologize that i am not knowledgeable enough on starcraft and that is just a rough list. However, i am knowledgeable enough in DotA. Some of the people you listed there aren't from the starcraft/dota section. please note on the games i have listed on my proposal. These are the 3 dota players you listed out.
- Clement “Puppey” Ivanov, The International (Dota 2 Competition)
- Puppey Interviewed by Natus Vincere TV 2011-10-20 Kai Chua
- Video: ASUS Summer Special featuring Puppey 2011-08-15 Ulrich Hanten
- Na`Vi's Puppey talks about Dota2 and Gamescom 2011-08-26 Ulrich Hanten
- Video: Na`Vi's Puppey speaks up 2011-08-04 Dexter F
- Puppey's state of Nirvana 2010-06-08 Linus Staaf
- Puppey tops MYM Champions League 2011-05-09 Terrence Wong
- Mousesports adds Puppey! 2008-11-24 Robert Reagen
- Puppey interviewed ahead of HFGL 2011-09-02 Dexter F
- Na'Vi take home $1,000,000 2011-08-21 Ulrich Hanten
There are alot on other sites i listed as well. same for Dmitriy “LighTofHeaveN” Kupriyanov. And as these 3 players are ukrainian/russian, even more significant coverage are given to them in prodota.ru. However, im really really sorry that i dont understand russian. Redefining history (talk) 07:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
GosuGamers is far from an independent reliable source. It appears be a blog that sponsors events. [14] [15] Ridernyc (talk) 08:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Plus this was also gone over at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard 5 days ago [16]. Like I said when he fails to get an answer he likes he just tries a slightly different tact on another talkpage. Ridernyc (talk) 09:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
It has a blog and forum feature, but it isnt a blog, and the information in the blogs and forums are never taken as references. It doesnt sponsor events. Please state more reasons why it isnt a reliable source. I will answer to them all. Scrap my arguments from 5 days ago, I feel prepared this time. Here you go http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gosugamers.net Redefining history (talk) 09:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Really they don't sponsor events? sure about that? I already linked to this above but I guess I'll do it again <http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/news/16743-be-part-of-the-2-500-winner-take-all-roccat-dota-gosucup-4>. And no I will not explain to yet again why they are not a reliable source to establish notability. It like everything has been explained to you numerous times and you ignore the explanation every time. Ridernyc (talk) 09:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh my, im talking about top teams who attended offline events here and you are talking about an online event where no top teams participated... That event is for the community instead, and has a measly prizepool of $2500, it has nothing to do with all the top events with $1 million prizepool and top teams/players im talking about. If you are talking about bias, give evidence. Redefining history (talk) 09:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Please read my chatlog on the wikipedia IRC above. EDIT:since you hate it so much to scroll through my arguments, i would paste it here.
- Quoted from Redefining history (talk) 04:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- My argument is, since football sites covering about football teams/players and basketball sites covering about basketball teams/players is considered independent, so why not dota sites covering about dota teams/players and starcraft sites covering about starcraft teams/players? (Note : for those with an argument "the players post the news iteself", the esports community is not so small. They have journalists and all and the players/managers never post news itself on these sites. There are also websites of these players/teams itself in which they are the primary sources and should not be considered independent/disinterested) These sites are different from the "fanpages" listed out in the video gaming sources as it isn't something like a fan-based community posting about rumours on the game itself and should be compared to those sites of basketball/football/other sports.
- Another Chatlog from wikipedia irc:
- [12:29] <redefinehistory> could you help me check this site? http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gosugamers.net
- [12:29] <redefinehistory> does it count as well known or something?
- [12:30] <redefinehistory> compared to this http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/sgamer.com
- [12:30] <+Alpha_Quadrant> redefinehistory: hmm, the first one appears to be used by other reliable sources
- [12:31] <+Alpha_Quadrant> suggesting that it may be reliable
- Quoted from Redefining history (talk) 04:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Redefining history (talk) 09:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please read your own chat log "suggesting that it may be reliable". No one ever told you it was actually a reliable source. Ridernyc (talk) 09:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- So? Im making a claim its reliable. You can contest to it, not making such kind of attacks.
- Description from alexa : Offers StarCraft, WarCraft and DotA Gaming news, interviews and matches information.
- What blog?
- So? Im making a claim its reliable. You can contest to it, not making such kind of attacks.
Redefining history (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Remember the little conversation we had on your talk page about endless arguing? Ridernyc (talk) 09:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, since a new point is brought up, it should be discussed and countered if it is wrong. Why arent you countering my argument? instead making all the links to previous arguments (in which i have new points here) and telling me to stop. Is that really how wikipedia works? At least give time for other users to review my arguments here. I'm answering to a constructive argument by LauraHale, he/she didn't get the chance to review my arguments and you are here insisting me to stop. Redefining history (talk) 09:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Also please stop going back and editing your talk page comments [17]. And with that I end my involvement in this circular argument with you. Ridernyc (talk) 09:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ridernyc, I am genuinely interested in this topic and feel that many of Redefining history's points are more valid than you give him credit for, yet I agree with you that he seems to be scattering this issue all over and in general wasting a lot of people's time through his redundancy. Perhaps you can clarify which page you think should contain the discourse on the question of whether these websites he's asking about should be considered "independent", etc., for the GNG? I would like to go there and read/discuss. Inkwiry (talk) 20:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- There is no need for further discourse unless new sources are provided. Going to 13 different places showing the same sources and getting the same answer is just wasting everyone's time. In over a week he has failed to come anywhere near establishing notability. There comes a point where it becomes abusive to the system and I think we have passed that point. He is on an ideological campaign at this point to prove us all wrong. Ridernyc (talk) 20:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- The correct place to discuss this would be here Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Esports news. I admit mistake over posting arguments outside wikipedia here and have since deleted them. The argument has ended with Salvdrim stating these:
- Quoted from : Salvidrim (talk) 02:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and as a secondary answer, if you want to compare to sports, here's how I see it:
- Covering sports at large would be akin to covering entertainment at large
- Covering a single sport (hockey, volleyball, baseball) would be akin to covering a single type of entertainment (movies, music, gaming)
- Covering a single sports team would be akin to covering a single video game (it is likely if you devote time and effort covering that topic, you're either fan or a detractor, thus not neutral or disinterested).
- For these reasons, I would not consider a website about (for example) the Montreal Canadiens and Ottawa Senators to assess notability for any individual player just because it discusses it, because it is written by and for fans. A site covering hockey would perhaps be able to assess such notability if it had significant independent coverage of a single player. At least, that is how I see it, others may think differently
- Which i have noted as a very very bad argument. In my opinion, it should be like this.
- Covering sports at large would be akin to covering e-sports at large (this is very complicated, as e-sports isn't based on a single game)
- Covering a single sport (hockey, volleyball, baseball) would be akin to covering a single type of game (dota, starcraft, cs)
- Covering a single sports team would be akin to covering a single e-sports team
- For these reasons, I would not consider a website about (for example) Moscow Five and Natus Vincere to assess notability for any individual player just because it discusses it, because it is written by and for fans. A site covering dota (gosugamers and others) would perhaps be able to assess such notability if it had significant independent coverage of a single player.
- Redefining history (talk) 11:37, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Redefining history. Ridernyc, I understand fully where you're coming from. However, although there may be certain arguments that I have not seen, I have seen several arguments on the topic, including the one which the above excerpt is from. He is quite right that the argument made there was very poor/incomplete, and this also applies to all of the other arguments that I have seen on the topic. So regardless of whether the non-notability of these sources has been thoroughly established somewhere on Wikipedia, if it is not currently thoroughly established in the correct place then I have trouble seeing why you would refuse to direct me to this correct place in order to further the discussion there. Surely we should like to have it thoroughly established in the correct place, so that future users such as myself with similar questions can find it. And if you feel that it has indeed been thoroughly established in a discussion somewhere, I would be greatly obliged if you'd link me there, or even better post a link to it in the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Esports news. Inkwiry (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC) — Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Actually, i'll post all the places where he argued here. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivan Antonov (Professional Gamer) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bu Yanjun are the most intense. It is clear to me that a consensus haven't been reached yet, you can see it for yourself. But he is so eager to end this argument that he'll do anything to make people think a consensus have been reached. Redefining history (talk) 23:08, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- The correct place to discuss this would be here Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Esports news. I admit mistake over posting arguments outside wikipedia here and have since deleted them. The argument has ended with Salvdrim stating these:
- There is no need for further discourse unless new sources are provided. Going to 13 different places showing the same sources and getting the same answer is just wasting everyone's time. In over a week he has failed to come anywhere near establishing notability. There comes a point where it becomes abusive to the system and I think we have passed that point. He is on an ideological campaign at this point to prove us all wrong. Ridernyc (talk) 20:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ridernyc, I am genuinely interested in this topic and feel that many of Redefining history's points are more valid than you give him credit for, yet I agree with you that he seems to be scattering this issue all over and in general wasting a lot of people's time through his redundancy. Perhaps you can clarify which page you think should contain the discourse on the question of whether these websites he's asking about should be considered "independent", etc., for the GNG? I would like to go there and read/discuss. Inkwiry (talk) 20:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Remember the little conversation we had on your talk page about endless arguing? Ridernyc (talk) 09:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
The aove is just getting ridiculously difficult to follow (especially when Redefining history keeps changing responses after they've been responded to). Before we start worrying about all the criteria etc, the basic question that I think needs answered is: Is playing video games a sport? Coming up with a criteria is moot is it isn't a sport, right? Niteshift36 (talk) 14:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Sport is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants. Sport may be competitive, where a winner or winners can be identified by objective means, and may require a degree of skill, especially at higher levels. Hundreds of sports exist, including those for a single participant, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals. Some non-physical activities, such as board games and card games are sometimes referred to as sports, but a sport is generally recognised as being based in physical athleticism."
- E-sports requires the hand-eye coordination and reaction that doesn't exist is the so called "mind sports" like poker and chess and board games. The "operating machines" (in e-sports case, a computer) is comparable to motorsports such as operating a car/motorcycle. And i do not change my comments, instead i add things into it when it comes to my mind, but ill stop doing that. Redefining history (talk) 14:34, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- First, let me say I'd also oppose the notion of poker or chess being called a sport for our purposes here. I don't see that definition applying to video games. This whole "hand/eye coordination makes it a sport" thing is a dodge. If your office held a typing contest, since it involves accurate physical movement, speed of movement (actions per minute) etc, you'd apparently call it a sport. I can't see any amount of look-at-it-with-your-head-tilted-and-one-eye-closed justification making me consider playing a game while seated in a Lay-z-boy recliner as a sport. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Typing competitions does not have the strategical aspects video games have, such as one action leading to certain results. The strategical aspects applies to all sports here. Redefining history (talk) 15:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Where does that definition say anything about strategy? Archery is an Olympic sport. Hand-eye coordination, simple mechanical action. Not much in the way of strategy though, is there? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Niteshift36, I would say it more this way: the subset of electronic games often known as "esports" have numerous unifying characteristics that simultaneously distinguish them in many significant ways from the rest of video games. While I do not see a strong argument that they are covered by Wikipedia's definition of a sport, I think a very strong argument can be made that they have more in common, fundamentally (whatever that means), with sports than they do with other video games. And I think it is possible if not likely that they share all the characteristics of sports which are relevant to Wikipedia's decision to give sports a separate set of notability guidelines. But I'm a bit of a newcomer here and still learning about these things, so that's where I'd like people like you to help me explore the argument.
- Also note the following sentence from Wikipedia's page on "sport": "Air sports, billiards, bridge, chess, motorcycle racing, and powerboating are all recognized as sports by the International Olympic Committee with their world governing bodies represented in the Association of the IOC Recognised International Sports Federations." While I had trouble following the citation for this claim, it was likely at least the case at one time (the page is probably just gone now), and regardless it is at least indicative of how some people have different ideas from yours on the definition of a sport (chess, incidentally, is a game played "while seated in a Lay-z-boy recliner", probably even more so than esports are - but in reality neither one normally is of course). Above, I explain what I think we should focus on here, instead of people's various definitions of sports. Inkwiry (talk) 19:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- And since I've already said I'd dispute chess being called a sport for the purposes of this guideline, telling me that chess can be played in a Lay-z-boy isn't very persuasive. (And when I watched guys on TV, they were in recliners BTW). Second, telling me what other sports are recognized by the IOC is kind of pointless, especially when the IOC doesn't recognize video game playing. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, my previous comment should read "Below, I explain what I think we should...".
- I wish you would stop choosing individual statements from my arguments, stating them on independent of context, and then claiming that they are "not very persuasive" or "pointless". Chess and the IOC list are simply examples to show you how people's opinions on the definition of "sport" vary widely, which is the key point of the proposal I make below. Please read it, if you haven't yet. I would like to hear what you think of it, because I think it could help us make this argument much clearer. Inkwiry (talk) 18:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- This is a very good idea. Let me try to further direct the focus of this argument. The way I see it, the entirety of the objection to esports as sports lies in the ideas of physical activity involved, as mentioned in the Wikepedia article on sport. Let me know if that is misguided, but I believe I can provide plenty evidence to convince you that esports meet most other reasonable criteria for sporthood. So then the question becomes one of how we define things like "physical activity", "physical athleticism", and "use of physical fitness", which has been discussed to some extent above (as well as below).
- However, I would like to stress that the definition of sports is and has always been a fuzzy thing. In general, I would argue, we develop a notion of "what is a sport" each on our own, subjectively, and then we proceed to collectively attempt to define sports in a way that matches our notions, excluding everything we intuitively think is not a sport while still including what we think is one.
- So I think that when discussing this issue, we should keep in mind that our current definition is really little more than our best attempt at codifying our intuitive sense (which is not at all unanimous anyway) of what is and what isn't a sport. Thus, especially in light of the fact that notability guidelines are not rules but guidelines, intentionally leaving tricky individual cases to our discretion, I propose that we shouldn't be examining so much a given "dictionary definition" or "consensus definition" of sports, so to speak (and there frankly is no consensus, as the Wikipedia article is careful to point out), but instead considering:
- What are the specific characteristics of sports which make it important for Wikipedia to have a set of notability guidelines specific to them?
- Does competitive video gaming fit that description?
- It is on these questions that I would like to suggest we focus the argument, until they are resolved to our satisfaction. Of course, if we decide that esports do certainly fit the dictionary definition of sports, then that will more or less resolve these questions, but I have a feeling there will always be strong opponents to the idea that video games involve "physical athleticism". Inkwiry (talk) 19:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- And there is good and obvious reason that it will be opposed. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh well, i just remembered there are typing games as well. Therefore, if typing is going to played competitively (notably) and reach the fanbase and community other well-known esports games like dota and starcraft have, why not consider typing under this guideline? the problem is, typing is much less entertaining to watch (lol, anyone will get excited by typing?) and entertainment is a huge part of sports here. Redefining history (talk) 22:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if you "get excited" about it or find it entertaining. Golf doesn't interest, entertain or excite me, but it is a sport. Video gaming is not a sport. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:40, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think there is something wrong with your point. Even if you are not entertained by golf, the huge community and coverage on golf would make the point that golf is somehow entertaining to these people. The point about why typing competitions cannot be included in WP:ATHELETE guidelines is, the fact that these typing competitions (are there any at all?) are not receiving sufficient coverage to pass the GNG. Henceforth, if typing gets enough attention from the public, why not include it inside WP:ATHLETE? The fact that chess and poker are being brought up to disprove esport's inclusion under WP:ATHLETE is due to the fact that all of chess, poker and esport has enough coverage, or even more than some of the sports listed under WP:SPORTS. And the point is made on why esport is different from chess and poker, satisfies the sports guideline, and should be included under sports, please argue along that line. Redefining history (talk) 07:51, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Niteshift36, I agree with you. But this response is not very relevant to my comment. I would love to hear your response to the actual proposal I made. If you disagree with it, I would love to hear what part of my argument for it you find lacking, because I felt it was pretty thorough but I could easily have made a step you don't agree with. That will be very helpful in keeping this discussion on track. Inkwiry (talk) 16:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Actually, I see no reason to debate it any further. From what I've seen, every experienced editor in this discussion has said that oppose including video game playing. Redefining History has presented nothing new. There is no reason for each person to go through this whole circular waste of time. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- I feel that the arguments of The Interior and Odie5533 has been supporting me all along. I agree Inkwiry is a new created account and could fall under SPA, but he does make valid arguments too. I see nowhere the question on the APM and reaction requierments of e-sports being physical been answered and I feel that you should focus on responding to the question that really hasn't been responded to. Redefining history (talk) 01:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Summary
This whole thing is actually split into 2 arguments.
- 1. Is E-Sport a sport? If yes, it should fall under WP:Athlete
- 2. Does sites like gosugamers satisfy as "reliable" sources? If yes, e-sports players generally satisfies the GNG.
Before commenting on this, read all the arguments above. Redefining history (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- The Gosugamers site appears to be moderated forum that pulls some news. That would fall under WP:SPS, and thus would not be reliable for meeting the GNG. Also, most of the stories on specific players just say they placed. That's not secondary coverage that the GNG requires. --MASEM (t) 15:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Where did you get that? Redefining history (talk) 15:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Only crews on gosugamers, who are journalists in their specific areas, are allowed to publish news in gosugamers. It is not a self-published source. Redefining history (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- "most of the stories on specific players just say they placed." What? how about those features and interviews? Redefining history (talk) 15:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- For those who still has the misconception on gosugamers/sgamer/mymym and other such sites... I would like to explain. These sites actually has forums/blogs features, however, they are not the main focus of these sites being brought up here and does NOT satisfy being reliable sources. Hence, all content on these forums/blogs cannot be cited. However, i am talking about the news features of these websites. For example, the news section of gosugamers is maintained by journalists employed (is there a better word?) by the company to update the latest news about players, teams and competitions in certain games (most prominently dota and starcraft). It is generally reputable and cited by other reliable sources (this is from the alexa rankings). It is disinterested (the argument is "if football sites reporting about football teams/players/competitions are reliable, so is dota sites reporting about dota teams/players/competitions). I think it has everything to satisfy as a reliable source. Redefining history (talk) 15:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- There's nothing on their pages that indicate they're journalists. Their "about" pages indicate they're admins that happen to publish news. There doesn't appear to be editorial control beyond whom are selected as admins. --MASEM (t) 15:56, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, they call them "editors", but they act like journalists.
- "There doesn't appear to be editorial control beyond whom are selected as admins" so that it isnt some form of moderated forum?
- I need to go to sleep here, ill answer everything posted after this tomorrow. Redefining history (talk) 16:00, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and. They aren't "selected", they are employed. Redefining history (talk) 16:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, i've been following the site for a year now, i'll tell you what the "editors" do. They travel and go to competitions for coverage (e.g. reporting about the happenings of the competition), interview the players, report latest news related to the players/teams/competitions. Just like any other sports journalist. The "About" page hasn't been updated for a very long time i think. Redefining history (talk) 22:54, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- For those who still has the misconception on gosugamers/sgamer/mymym and other such sites... I would like to explain. These sites actually has forums/blogs features, however, they are not the main focus of these sites being brought up here and does NOT satisfy being reliable sources. Hence, all content on these forums/blogs cannot be cited. However, i am talking about the news features of these websites. For example, the news section of gosugamers is maintained by journalists employed (is there a better word?) by the company to update the latest news about players, teams and competitions in certain games (most prominently dota and starcraft). It is generally reputable and cited by other reliable sources (this is from the alexa rankings). It is disinterested (the argument is "if football sites reporting about football teams/players/competitions are reliable, so is dota sites reporting about dota teams/players/competitions). I think it has everything to satisfy as a reliable source. Redefining history (talk) 15:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Answering question 2 is moot until question 1 is answered. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- IMO, answering question 2 first would be a good idea, as it allowing some pages of e-sports players to be created on wikipedia in the first place. Then we can discuss about question 1. (I brought everything here since i dont want the discussion to go on multiple talk pages) However, that is just my opinion, other opinions are welcome. Redefining history (talk) 15:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- That makes no sense. This page is about the notability standards for sports. If this isn't a sport, then what we think about the notability standard is moot. If we did it your way, when I wanted to talk about the notability standard of actors, I'd got to the page for the math project. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thats cos i got flamed for bringing up this topic in multiple pages :( I dont know what to do so i focused both arguments in this talk page. Anyways i made a response for question one there. Redefining history (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I understand you wanting it all in one place. But until the issue of whether or not it even belongs here is settled, no other discussion makes sense. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. It seems pretty clear to me that your first question is the only one relevant on this particular forum; if it is not a sport, discuss this elsewhere. As the first question is being discussed specifically in the above section, let's leave it there, because (as has been said) the discussion is becoming insanely convoluted, mostly through your efforts I might add.
- I have felt Ridernyc's comments to be somewhat antagonistic toward you in general, but he is by and large correct. You need to stop moving from place to place in attempts to get different answers to the same question. I think a lot of your questions are valid and many of your claims hold up very well under close examination, and you have done some good work towards figuring out what kind of criteria we should look for. But instead of repeating your assertions every time you can find a new person, try to say each thing once, say it well, and say it in the forum where it belongs; if you want to say it again somewhere else, cite/link to it instead. Convolution, broken-off lines of argument, and unnecessary repetition are extremely counterproductive to everyone's goals here. Inkwiry (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- That's the reason im focusing all the argument on this page. So stick the argument on this page, will ya'll? Redefining history (talk) 07:54, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Thanks! Inkwiry (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- At the same time he said this he went back to the Reliable Sources Notice Board and restarted the debate there. Ridernyc (talk) 17:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm confused. Is that not the proper place for that discussion? The debate here should only consist of whether or not "esports" ought to fall under the sports notability guidelines, as I see it. Is the problem that you feel satisfied that that discussion has been resolved, and he does not? Based on what I see at the Reliable Sources Notice Board, it is far from resolved, but I may be missing something. Inkwiry (talk) 18:11, 24 October 2011 (UTC) — Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Sorry, to clarify, when I say "that discussion" above (both places) I'm referring the discussion on whether the sources in question ("esports news websites" generally) are reliable under the GNG. Inkwiry (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- At the same time he said this he went back to the Reliable Sources Notice Board and restarted the debate there. Ridernyc (talk) 17:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Thanks! Inkwiry (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)— Inkwiry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- That's the reason im focusing all the argument on this page. So stick the argument on this page, will ya'll? Redefining history (talk) 07:54, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I feel very strongly (and it appears that some other editors agree with me, although their comments can appear to have been buried under the lengthy lobbying by those who want to add this stuff to the guideline) that e-"sports" are not a "sport" for our purposes here. I doubt that we can resolve the issue by discussion amongst a small number of editors here. Editors who want to add e-sports to this page will, therefore, need to obtain consensus in a policy RfC before adding it to the page, as far as I am concerned. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I feel we should have an RFC about adding a line that explicitly states this guideline is not covering professional gamers. Far too many people trying to point to this at AFD. It is very clear that there will not for the foreseeable future be any consensus to have this guideline cover gamers. The problem is twofold one there will never be consensus that this should even be covered by the sports guideline, second there will never be consensus that this group of people have enough notability to justify inclusion in this guideline. This is why I told redefining history to make a proposal at the video games project. There are multiple issues here that I feel will never be overcome. Ridernyc (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'd support doing that without an RfC, because, in contrast, it does nothing to change the status quo. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- The only reason I mention RFC is because I know what a certain editor is going to do and it would nice to have an RFC to point to. Ridernyc (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Understood. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- In case it isn't already clear, You'll have my support too. I don't buy it as a sport. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Niteshift36, do you have anything to counter my argument above there? Doesn't that mean you agreed? Redefining history (talk) 22:56, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- You may not buy it, but it fits the definition well and should be included. Redefining history (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Counter your argument? You really have no argument. You're simply trying to force the definition of real sports to fit the faux sport of video gaming. So far, every experienced editor in this discussion is saying no. The only one supporting it is you and a dubious WP:SPANiteshift36 (talk) 23:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Understood. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- The only reason I mention RFC is because I know what a certain editor is going to do and it would nice to have an RFC to point to. Ridernyc (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'd support doing that without an RfC, because, in contrast, it does nothing to change the status quo. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Let's Just End This
At this point it impossible to even comment anymore because redefining history has made such a mess of the conversation thread with endless arguing and inappropriate editing of comments. As a result until such a time as NEW sources are found that establish notability I'm moving on. Consensus is clear that this guideline at this time will not apply to any professional gamers. At this time I invite someone who has less involvement then me to draft a RFC to make this point clear in the current guideline. This has gotten old fast. Ridernyc (talk) 00:06, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- Explain to me where has the consensus been reached. Redefining history (talk) 01:15, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- RH, it's not that consensus has been reached any which way, it's that consensus for the inclusion of e-sports in this guideline has not been achieved, nor does it look likely. I would like to re-examine these issues soon without the AfD's confusing the matter. I think maybe drafting your comments to be brief and concise would be a good step for any subsequent discussion. The Interior (Talk) 01:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for this, please also do examine on the sources I have presented and I think i have made a strong argument on why it should be reliable. (which is the part under summary and the part just before Arbitrary break) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redefining history (talk • contribs) 01:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've been following this and your posts (with great difficulty). This discussion is a good first step to frame the arguments that could be used in a later Request for Comment. However, at this time, I don't see much to be gained in extending this thread. The Interior (Talk) 01:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for this, please also do examine on the sources I have presented and I think i have made a strong argument on why it should be reliable. (which is the part under summary and the part just before Arbitrary break) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redefining history (talk • contribs) 01:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- As a result until such a time as NEW sources are found that establish notability I'm moving on. If you want to comment on a possible RFC you are welcome to. Otherwise I will not respond to you unless you bring something new to the table. Ridernyc (talk) 01:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've read every single of your argument. As i have proven your previous arguments on them being "fansites" wrong, you have done nothing to prove the sources unreliable. There isn't a need for new sources, just that you need to go examine the sources I have presented abit more. Redefining history (talk) 01:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- As i have noted, there has been NO answer on my argument just before the arbitrary break above. Redefining history (talk) 01:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- RH, it's not that consensus has been reached any which way, it's that consensus for the inclusion of e-sports in this guideline has not been achieved, nor does it look likely. I would like to re-examine these issues soon without the AfD's confusing the matter. I think maybe drafting your comments to be brief and concise would be a good step for any subsequent discussion. The Interior (Talk) 01:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I have decided to just start the RFC you can find it bellow. Ridernyc (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
WP:BASE/N change suggestion
I believe any player who wins an MVP award in any American professional baseball league (except for in the independent leagues, perhaps), either major or minor, should be declared "inherently notable" and a stipulation to that nature should be added to WP:BASE/N. Alex (talk) 17:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's hard to argue about that for the major leagues. I don't know about the minor leagues. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'd agree to that. The top baseball minor leagues have been around for a century, have had teams - and still has teams - in major cities and metropolitan areas, and assuredly meet the GNG. Ravenswing 18:36, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly disagree. Tell me, without looking it up, who won the 2011 MVP Award for the Pioneer Baseball League, or the New York - Penn League? Class-A leagues are plentiful, as are all the Class-D leagues prior to the reconfiguration. This opens up BASE/N to too many people. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well I know Jake Lemmerman won the Pioneer League MVP in 2010, but no idea for 2011... In any event, I'd say anything below AA is a non starter here. AA & AAA MVPs I'd at least consider, but those guys probably would easy pass GNG anyway. Spanneraol (talk) 19:16, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Where, exactly, is the problem that the proposal seeks to address? In other words, at what level of the minors have there been disputes about whether an MVP is or isn't notable? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've always figured that SNGs should not determine "inherent notability", but rather represent what is assumed to be notable. In short, what passes Wikipedia's core policies? If there is enough evidence that winners of the Pioneer League's MVPs receive enough non-trivial coverage in reliable sources such that a biographical article can be written, then sure. But if you can't show that winners of these awards pass WP:V, WP:RS, WP:BIO, etc., then no, the criteria should not change. Resolute 19:37, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be demonstrated that the winners for a given league award have nearly always received notable coverage before all winners can be presumed notable. I made this comment regarding league award winners in a different sport, but it can be applied here, too. isaacl (talk) 20:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it needs to be made very clear, in case anyone misunderstands, that this guideline indicates "presumed notability", but never overrides GNG to confer "inherent notability". --Tryptofish (talk) 20:34, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be demonstrated that the winners for a given league award have nearly always received notable coverage before all winners can be presumed notable. I made this comment regarding league award winners in a different sport, but it can be applied here, too. isaacl (talk) 20:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't believe that this is enough to presume notability upon, but it could be cited as an example of something that supports notability. As a primary reason for presuming notability? No, not at all. And as clarification for the above, the minor leagues are not considered to be "fully professional" anyway, so those leagues, the National and American Leagues, already have articles for those players. — KV5 • Talk • 21:16, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would need evidence that winning any of these awards is worthy of a presumption of meeting GNG. WP:NSPORTS says "This guideline provides bright-line guidance to enable editors to determine quickly if a subject is likely to meet the General Notability Guideline." Also, there is enough dispute over existing sports guidelines that tag on the ambiguous "or similar" leagues catch-all, so I would not support a more careless description like "all leagues". Prove that a player winning a league's award should be presumed to meet GNG, and then explicitly itemize such leagues (if any). When in doubt, don't add to specific notability guidelines, editors can always demonstrate GNG. Many editors don't realize that NSPORTS is just guidance, and it explicitly says "In addition, standalone articles are required to meet the General Notability Guideline"—Bagumba (talk) 21:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps there is no need for a change for major league players, because they will pass long before becoming MVP, and we should not make any change here for minor league players. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:35, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- The reason I suggested it is I often see people claiming "Was an All-Star x amount of times" as reasons for notability on AfDs, however that is a very tenuous argument that doesn't fit with any of the guidelines set forth in WP:BASE/N. I posit that league MVPs were also very like All-Stars, so by adding their notability to the list of "inherently notable" traits, it would eliminate the ambiguity of the "was a minor league All-Star" argument for at least a chunk of the minor leaguers. Alex (talk) 22:25, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would suggest a different approach. Unless we find a player characteristic for which multiple AfD are continuously voted "keep" based on meeting GNG, e.g. players who have played one game in MLB, there is no need to legislate yet another rule here in NSPORTS. Otherwise,we will spend more time discussing it here to get a change than any actually time that will be saved in AfDs.—Bagumba (talk) 23:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Some fairly turgid thinking above. For openers, what kind of question is "Who won the 2011 MVP Award for the Pioneer Baseball League?" Back atcha, Muboshgu - without looking it up, who is the chief executive of Ulanbaatar? Of Canberra? Of Abuja? Who won the Van Cliburn competition the last time out? Can you name the winner of any Van Cliburn competition? The userboxes on your user page indicate that you're interested in politics and music, but it's unlikely you know these people, however much they're chief execs of national capitals or winners of the world's most noteworthy piano competition. That's why we don't base notability criteria on whether we've heard of subjects or not.
For a second, the "fully professional" bit has been eliminated from WP:ATHLETE ... and given that WP:ATHLETE has always enshrined amateur athletes, it wasn't a useful distinction beforehand either. That being said, the notion that baseball's minor leagues are not "fully professional" is a crock, because they are each and every one of them exactly that - the players are paid for their services, and in many cases handsomely so.
For a third, what does AfD have to do with this? AfD should, and usually does, follow the existing guidelines, and it isn't the proper venue to argue that they should be overturned.
Finally, there is certainly a purpose to discussing this here - plainly there are those who feel that MVPs would, as a rule, pass the GNG and so ought to be considered presumptively notable. Ravenswing 01:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with the proposal. Although I am less concerned about the presumptive notability of Rookie League MVPs than about players in top minor leagues before those leagues became development leagues (and represented the teams of such current Major League cities as LA, SF, Baltimore, Toronto, etc.). Rlendog (talk) 18:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Triathlon standards
I'm a little fuzzy on the standards for triathlon. 1.Have competed in Triathlon at the Summer Olympics or have had a podium finish at the Pan American Games or Commonwealth Games. Since the generally accepted standards for sports in general states "1.have participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level such as the Olympics.", isn't this sort of redundant? Standards #2-4 say a podium finish at specified events. Is that an overall podium finish or age group? If it is overall, these are some pretty steep standards, especially compared to some of the other sports. If it is age group, that presents it's own issues. Can anyone clarify the intention? Niteshift36 (talk) 04:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I believe its overall podium. Reasoning being that triathlon winners compared to some of the other sports get very little coverage in the way of reliable sources. Remember these are just guidelines as to when they are likely to meet GNG. If you have sources that the person meets GNG already then what this page says is moot. -DJSasso (talk) 13:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- If it is overall podium, then I'd argue that the standard is far too stringent. Look at the ones for Ironman events. It's only the world championship events. Every Ironman event has pro's competing in it. Since the pro should already pass notability, an amateur who gets an overall podium finish at any IM event has done something pretty notable (and it happened yesterday). Regardless, limiting the criteria To only the championships is overly restrictive. A guy could beat a bunch of pro's at a IM event and not be able to use that as an indicator of notability, but playing half an inning of pro baseball or one down of pro football would work. BTW, winning age groups at many IM events can lead to being a pro, but placing overall at an event won't get past this criteria. Does that sound right? Niteshift36 (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Nothing on this page is an indicator of notability. This page only indicates when there is likely to be press coverage to pass GNG. GNG is what determines notability, so if that guy beats a bunch of pro's at an IM event and then has news articles about him, he is notable. -DJSasso (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- you are missing the point. Forget GNG for a minute. Compared to the standards of other sports, the standard for triathlon is significantly more stringent and I see no good reason for it to be that steep. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- The whole point of this guideline is that different sports require different levels to reach notability. The old ATHLETE was a one size fits all solution. When this one was developed it was created so that some sports had higher levels on purpose. Those higher levels reflect how much news coverage those sports get, the less news coverage the higher the requirement. This isn't a failing of guideline but the main purpose of it. -DJSasso (talk) 11:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
- And I'm saying the guideline for triathlon is very steep compared to other sports. What is it that you dispute about that? I've heard about GNG, which is not what I'm talking about. I've heard about the old WP:ATHLETE, which isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the specific standards for a specific sport in this guideline. Why do you think making it tougher than other sports is justified? Niteshift36 (talk) 02:09, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- The "toughness" is relative to the amount of coverage the sport gets in the news. A triathlete that doesn't meet these is not 99% likely to meet the GNG which is what the guidelines for each sport have attempted to be set at. These are meant to be as close to a guarantee as we can get that the subject will meet the GNG. In the triathlon anything below this level doesn't meet that level of sureness that it meets the GNG thus we defer to the GNG. Other sports athletes get written about much lower level so they aren't as tough so to speak. -DJSasso (talk) 02:25, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- That doesn't even make sense. Less coverage means fewer opportunities to achieve notability. That should have no bearing on how difficult it is to pass notability standards. A football player need only play a single down in one of 6 different leagues and he is considered to pass this criteria. That is hundreds of opportunities each season. A triathlete winning the Ironman Texas would not pass notability, only those who make the podium in the world championships. That is only 6 chances for men and 6 for women. The fact that football gets more media coverage shouldn't make it easier. If anything, the standard should be harder since they should be passing GNG easier because football gets so much more coverage. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly less coverage means fewer opportunities to achieve notability. This guideline doesn't confer notability it just tells you when there is likely enough coverage that a person will pass the GNG. The more coverage the easier it is to pass the GNG. So football players will pass the GNG sooner than a triathlete will. This guideline does not judge notability. I think that seems to be the issue you are having. This guideline only judges how much coverage someone is likely to have which in turn indicates how likely they are to meet the GNG. It is basically giving you the odds so to speak. In otherwords it is telling you that if they don't meet those criteria you are going to have to work harder to find sources for them to meet the GNG because we can't presume they are notable. 6 chances for men and 6 for women where we can almost guarantee there are sources out there, not that there are only those 12 that can have articles. -DJSasso (talk) 03:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're ignoring the practical, real-world use of guidelines like these. They are used over and over at AfD as "passes such and such" or "fails such and such". If you want to continue ignoring the reality or how these guidelines get used, that's fine for you, but it doesn't address my concern. Your comment about how I have to work harder is just insulting. I've never said anything like that, it's just an incorrect assumption on your part. Before I ask you any other specific questions, I have to ask if you know much about the sport? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't mean you specifically I meant you in the general sense when I said looking for sources. And yes I realize how people often try to use them. Its for those very reasons that sports with little coverage have such high requirements. Because if they had lower ones people would use these guidelines as a way to keep the articles even if there was no coverage of the athlete anywhere and likely would never be. As for specifics I know some but enough to be able to alter these guidelines with confidence I don't. That should be taken to the wikiproject that deals with these articles or better yet invite them to come here and comment. They are the ones who likely worked on creating them. That is how most of the sports ones came about. -DJSasso (talk) 17:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's not a "try" to use them. They are successfully used every day. Simply put, the competition level is high enough that a podium finish at any Ironman event should suffice, particularly when some sports require simply participating. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:39, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
That is because in some sports simply participating gets you in depth articles. In any given Ironman can you say that is the case? I am guessing not likely but I don't know the sport to say so for sure. As I said a discussion amongst people who know the sport should probably be had. As for try vs. successful, if the article has sources on it that meet the GNG usually the arguments at Afd that so and so doesn't meet it are not successful because any admin who is worth his salt closing knows the GNG trumps. -DJSasso (talk) 17:44, 27 October 2011 (UTC)